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	<title>Comments on: Why is the DOE&#8217;s Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Pushing Oil Shale?</title>
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	<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2008/08/01/why-is-the-does-office-of-energy-efficiency-and-renewable-energy-pushing-oil-shale/</link>
	<description>Patriotism that loves our country, our land, and our planet</description>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2008/08/01/why-is-the-does-office-of-energy-efficiency-and-renewable-energy-pushing-oil-shale/comment-page-1/#comment-4578</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 13:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=613#comment-4578</guid>
		<description> &lt;a href=&quot;http://digg.com/environment/Alberta_s_Oil_Sands_Sucking_Up_Volumes_of_Water&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://digg.com/environment/Alberta_s_Oil_Sands_S...&lt;/a&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> <a href="http://digg.com/environment/Alberta_s_Oil_Sands_Sucking_Up_Volumes_of_Water" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://digg.com/environment/Alberta_s_Oil_Sands_S" rel="nofollow">http://digg.com/environment/Alberta_s_Oil_Sands_S</a>&#8230; </p>
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		<title>By: Nordic</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2008/08/01/why-is-the-does-office-of-energy-efficiency-and-renewable-energy-pushing-oil-shale/comment-page-1/#comment-4528</link>
		<dc:creator>Nordic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 14:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=613#comment-4528</guid>
		<description>There are a few problems with the oil shale.  One it will take at least 15 years for this to make a significant impact in how much oil we import.  Two, this is still not a renewable resource as it will last only 100 years at current rates, which is substantially lower than that (we&#039;re not going to stay using the same amount of energy).  Three, this is essentially boring out huge amounts of shale and forcing out the oil.  I imagine it is pretty brutal to the landscape to pull out 800 billion barrels or 33 trillion 600 billion gallons of oil out of the mountains.  I wonder how much oil you get for how much shale you have to excavate.  Just so you know everyone shale is a rock so you have to pull out the rock and juice it to get the oil.  Also you need 2 to 5 gallons of water per gallon of oil so that&#039;s at least 68 trillion gallons of water to produce all the oil that supposedly can be pulled from the mountains.  This all becomes waste water as it comes out a sludge. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a few problems with the oil shale.  One it will take at least 15 years for this to make a significant impact in how much oil we import.  Two, this is still not a renewable resource as it will last only 100 years at current rates, which is substantially lower than that (we&#039;re not going to stay using the same amount of energy).  Three, this is essentially boring out huge amounts of shale and forcing out the oil.  I imagine it is pretty brutal to the landscape to pull out 800 billion barrels or 33 trillion 600 billion gallons of oil out of the mountains.  I wonder how much oil you get for how much shale you have to excavate.  Just so you know everyone shale is a rock so you have to pull out the rock and juice it to get the oil.  Also you need 2 to 5 gallons of water per gallon of oil so that&#039;s at least 68 trillion gallons of water to produce all the oil that supposedly can be pulled from the mountains.  This all becomes waste water as it comes out a sludge. </p>
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		<title>By: Mark Landson</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2008/08/01/why-is-the-does-office-of-energy-efficiency-and-renewable-energy-pushing-oil-shale/comment-page-1/#comment-4492</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Landson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 15:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=613#comment-4492</guid>
		<description>As glenn alluded to above, Shell has been secretly working on shale oil for 2 decades, and have apparently cracked the code as to how to extract it economically and with very minimum damage to the environment. 
 
They recently came out to explain the process since they had to apply for patents, etc. 
 
The Shell process consists of drilling holes into the ground with heating elements. There are perimeter holes that freeze the surrounding ground to avoid seepage into the ground water supply. The shale oil then actually runs out of the rock and into a middle hole, where it can be easily pumped out, and it is a very high quality oil, as well. 
 
Shell estimates that this process would be profitable if gasoline were only $2/gallon, so it&#039;s certainly efficient enough. 
 
Shell is building a refinery on site. The estimated time to bring this to market is around 8 years. 
 
A lot of water will be needed, for sure, but the same can be said for algae biodiesel production, which hopefully will supplant most oil use down the line. 
 
As far as oil being a renewable energy source, as research like this continues, we may find out that oil is more renewable than we expect now. After all, oil is basically sunlight energy trapped and concentrated through pressure and heat. If oil shale, which is basically crude oil that is a million years too young, can be turned into crude oil by speeding up the process, who is to say there won&#039;t be other advances that do more than that? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As glenn alluded to above, Shell has been secretly working on shale oil for 2 decades, and have apparently cracked the code as to how to extract it economically and with very minimum damage to the environment.</p>
<p>They recently came out to explain the process since they had to apply for patents, etc.</p>
<p>The Shell process consists of drilling holes into the ground with heating elements. There are perimeter holes that freeze the surrounding ground to avoid seepage into the ground water supply. The shale oil then actually runs out of the rock and into a middle hole, where it can be easily pumped out, and it is a very high quality oil, as well.</p>
<p>Shell estimates that this process would be profitable if gasoline were only $2/gallon, so it&#039;s certainly efficient enough.</p>
<p>Shell is building a refinery on site. The estimated time to bring this to market is around 8 years.</p>
<p>A lot of water will be needed, for sure, but the same can be said for algae biodiesel production, which hopefully will supplant most oil use down the line.</p>
<p>As far as oil being a renewable energy source, as research like this continues, we may find out that oil is more renewable than we expect now. After all, oil is basically sunlight energy trapped and concentrated through pressure and heat. If oil shale, which is basically crude oil that is a million years too young, can be turned into crude oil by speeding up the process, who is to say there won&#039;t be other advances that do more than that? </p>
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		<title>By: Timothy B. Hurst</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2008/08/01/why-is-the-does-office-of-energy-efficiency-and-renewable-energy-pushing-oil-shale/comment-page-1/#comment-4439</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy B. Hurst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 19:35:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=613#comment-4439</guid>
		<description>This is a great discussion - on so many levels. Thank you all for your comments. 
 
Although I intended to emphasize the oddity of seeing an oil-shale themed article in a publication from the branch of the DOE in charge of renewable energy, I can see by the above discussion  -- of the actual processes, economic feasibility, and environmental impacts -- that the substantive issue is much more important to folks.  
 
As a Colorado resident, I am all too aware of how precious of a resource water is. Everyone has heard the old adage: &quot;In the West, whiskey is for drinkin&#039; and water is for fightin&#039;. It is my understanding that developing oil shale can use anywhere from 2-5 barrels for every barrel of oil produced. Can the already over-burdened Colorado River basin handle this kind of water use? As it stands currently, the mighty Colorado is barely a trickle when it gets to the Sea of Cortez.  
 
As far as oil-shale infrastructure only taking two years, I&#039;m just not seeing those type numbers anywhere - especially considering the oil companies are still real leery about diving in full-bore because of the costs. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a great discussion &#8211; on so many levels. Thank you all for your comments.</p>
<p>Although I intended to emphasize the oddity of seeing an oil-shale themed article in a publication from the branch of the DOE in charge of renewable energy, I can see by the above discussion  &#8212; of the actual processes, economic feasibility, and environmental impacts &#8212; that the substantive issue is much more important to folks. </p>
<p>As a Colorado resident, I am all too aware of how precious of a resource water is. Everyone has heard the old adage: &quot;In the West, whiskey is for drinkin&#039; and water is for fightin&#039;. It is my understanding that developing oil shale can use anywhere from 2-5 barrels for every barrel of oil produced. Can the already over-burdened Colorado River basin handle this kind of water use? As it stands currently, the mighty Colorado is barely a trickle when it gets to the Sea of Cortez. </p>
<p>As far as oil-shale infrastructure only taking two years, I&#039;m just not seeing those type numbers anywhere &#8211; especially considering the oil companies are still real leery about diving in full-bore because of the costs. </p>
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		<title>By: ecostew</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2008/08/01/why-is-the-does-office-of-energy-efficiency-and-renewable-energy-pushing-oil-shale/comment-page-1/#comment-4434</link>
		<dc:creator>ecostew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 15:05:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=613#comment-4434</guid>
		<description>As we (globally) are confronted with AGW, we are facing energy security issues, including world-wide peak oil production with increasing demand, which sets the value of a drum of oil. Opening US sensitive environmental areas to offshore drilling will not increase peak oil production today or in 5-10 years as world-wide production declines. We must look to alternate sources of energy immediately for our transportation needs while addressing AGW e.g., renewable wind, solar, and biomass for electricity generation. Oil shale is not a solution given its energy and water extraction demands, environmental destruction (including residues), and GHG emissions. Corn grain ethanol is not a solution due to low net energy gain, GHG emissions, environmental degradation (e.g., water pollution and soil loss), and food supply issues) and cellulosic ethanol doesn&#039;t look favorable due to energy density issues and GHG emissions. Coal without carbon capture and increased pollution abatement is also not a long-term solution. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As we (globally) are confronted with AGW, we are facing energy security issues, including world-wide peak oil production with increasing demand, which sets the value of a drum of oil. Opening US sensitive environmental areas to offshore drilling will not increase peak oil production today or in 5-10 years as world-wide production declines. We must look to alternate sources of energy immediately for our transportation needs while addressing AGW e.g., renewable wind, solar, and biomass for electricity generation. Oil shale is not a solution given its energy and water extraction demands, environmental destruction (including residues), and GHG emissions. Corn grain ethanol is not a solution due to low net energy gain, GHG emissions, environmental degradation (e.g., water pollution and soil loss), and food supply issues) and cellulosic ethanol doesn&#039;t look favorable due to energy density issues and GHG emissions. Coal without carbon capture and increased pollution abatement is also not a long-term solution. </p>
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		<title>By: glenn</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2008/08/01/why-is-the-does-office-of-energy-efficiency-and-renewable-energy-pushing-oil-shale/comment-page-1/#comment-4429</link>
		<dc:creator>glenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 08:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=613#comment-4429</guid>
		<description>Of course it&#039;s reasonable. 5.2 TRILLION bbl of oil in that formation. Needs 2 things to get out by the process Shell learned last year: heat and water. Heat? Yellowstone caldera is nearby. Develop that, get the oil, side benefit get a geothermal industry that can be used all over the west. Water? Fresh water is not too plentiful there but pipe in salt water from the oceans of which there is plenty. You need pipes to get the oil out anyway; this just says you run extra ones to get water in. It stays underground, out of aquifers. Surface is almost totally undisturbed by the Shell process. So why treat this as though someone wanted to strip mine all of Wyoming??? We&#039;d have enough oil to make the whole middle east look like a minor player. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course it&#039;s reasonable. 5.2 TRILLION bbl of oil in that formation. Needs 2 things to get out by the process Shell learned last year: heat and water. Heat? Yellowstone caldera is nearby. Develop that, get the oil, side benefit get a geothermal industry that can be used all over the west. Water? Fresh water is not too plentiful there but pipe in salt water from the oceans of which there is plenty. You need pipes to get the oil out anyway; this just says you run extra ones to get water in. It stays underground, out of aquifers. Surface is almost totally undisturbed by the Shell process. So why treat this as though someone wanted to strip mine all of Wyoming??? We&#039;d have enough oil to make the whole middle east look like a minor player. </p>
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		<title>By: Rod Adams</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2008/08/01/why-is-the-does-office-of-energy-efficiency-and-renewable-energy-pushing-oil-shale/comment-page-1/#comment-4427</link>
		<dc:creator>Rod Adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 07:37:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=613#comment-4427</guid>
		<description>One facet of both tar sands and shale production that make it challenging for them to compete, even as conventional oil prices increase, is the fact that they are very dependent on injections of external energy. 
 
Both sources of usable fuels require heating, additional hydrogen, and excavation of enormous quantities of rock in order to produce. Unlike conventional oil and gas that flows of its own accord, this stuff requires a lot of work. &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(thermodynamics)&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Work is defined as the integral of power&lt;/a&gt;. 
 
Since Power is Energy/Unit time, it takes a lot of energy to wrest the energy in shale and tar sands from the ground. It is only economical if there is a cheap source of energy available.  
 
The tar sands developments have been made possible because there was stranded natural gas that could not get to market due to lack of pipelines. It is easier to ship liquids than it is to ship gas so it made some economic sense to use the gas to produce even a relatively small quantity of liquid fuel. 
 
Unfortunately, Colorado shale may be subject to the same economics where a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ogj.com/articles/save_screen.cfm?ARTICLE_ID=331036&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;cheap, stranded source of natural gas makes it economical&lt;/a&gt; to put in the work necessary to produce oil from shale - for a while. Once as is becoming more apparent in Canada, when the cheap gas is no longer available... 
 
What happens then? Who restores the land that was torn up? Who pulls the excess pollutants out of the air that were injected during the boom times? 
 
I do, however, understand the desires of those who would rather put a lot of work into producing oil from North America and employing North Americans rather than sending 700 billion a year to people that often do not like us very much. Definitely a dilemma. 
 
Good thing there is a reliable, emission free, low cost alternative or two. (Nuclear fission is my favorite, but large scale wind can work for some needs.) </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One facet of both tar sands and shale production that make it challenging for them to compete, even as conventional oil prices increase, is the fact that they are very dependent on injections of external energy.</p>
<p>Both sources of usable fuels require heating, additional hydrogen, and excavation of enormous quantities of rock in order to produce. Unlike conventional oil and gas that flows of its own accord, this stuff requires a lot of work. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(thermodynamics)" rel="nofollow">Work is defined as the integral of power</a>.</p>
<p>Since Power is Energy/Unit time, it takes a lot of energy to wrest the energy in shale and tar sands from the ground. It is only economical if there is a cheap source of energy available. </p>
<p>The tar sands developments have been made possible because there was stranded natural gas that could not get to market due to lack of pipelines. It is easier to ship liquids than it is to ship gas so it made some economic sense to use the gas to produce even a relatively small quantity of liquid fuel.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, Colorado shale may be subject to the same economics where a <a href="http://www.ogj.com/articles/save_screen.cfm?ARTICLE_ID=331036" rel="nofollow">cheap, stranded source of natural gas makes it economical</a> to put in the work necessary to produce oil from shale &#8211; for a while. Once as is becoming more apparent in Canada, when the cheap gas is no longer available&#8230;</p>
<p>What happens then? Who restores the land that was torn up? Who pulls the excess pollutants out of the air that were injected during the boom times?</p>
<p>I do, however, understand the desires of those who would rather put a lot of work into producing oil from North America and employing North Americans rather than sending 700 billion a year to people that often do not like us very much. Definitely a dilemma.</p>
<p>Good thing there is a reliable, emission free, low cost alternative or two. (Nuclear fission is my favorite, but large scale wind can work for some needs.) </p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Williams</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2008/08/01/why-is-the-does-office-of-energy-efficiency-and-renewable-energy-pushing-oil-shale/comment-page-1/#comment-4426</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 06:25:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=613#comment-4426</guid>
		<description>It is economically viable.  
 
The Nazi&#039;s used oil synthesized from coal to fuel their war machine, and that was over 50 years ago. Of course, they were using slave labor (the interred Jewish population) at the I.G. Farben plant that was producing the synthetic oil; however, that was over 50 years ago. The coal/shale to liquid process has to have come a long way in that time, also with the current price of a barrel of oil, I&#039;m surprised we haven&#039;t been making use of CTL (Coal to Liquid) technology earlier. Coal is the one thing we&#039;re not running out of anytime soon in this country. 
 
Oh wait, I&#039;m not surprised. Because the oil industry owns the coal too, and they&#039;ll squeeze every last dollar out of natural oil before they present an alternative. 
 
I&#039;m not at all for fossil fuels, but if we opened up CTL plants around this country, we could cease our need for foreign oil, and bring the price way down. At least until we can build the infrastructure to run on renewables.  
 
But I think we know how likely it is that the oil companies will present an alternative to their product in their most profitable period in history. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is economically viable. </p>
<p>The Nazi&#039;s used oil synthesized from coal to fuel their war machine, and that was over 50 years ago. Of course, they were using slave labor (the interred Jewish population) at the I.G. Farben plant that was producing the synthetic oil; however, that was over 50 years ago. The coal/shale to liquid process has to have come a long way in that time, also with the current price of a barrel of oil, I&#039;m surprised we haven&#039;t been making use of CTL (Coal to Liquid) technology earlier. Coal is the one thing we&#039;re not running out of anytime soon in this country.</p>
<p>Oh wait, I&#039;m not surprised. Because the oil industry owns the coal too, and they&#039;ll squeeze every last dollar out of natural oil before they present an alternative.</p>
<p>I&#039;m not at all for fossil fuels, but if we opened up CTL plants around this country, we could cease our need for foreign oil, and bring the price way down. At least until we can build the infrastructure to run on renewables. </p>
<p>But I think we know how likely it is that the oil companies will present an alternative to their product in their most profitable period in history. </p>
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		<title>By: JIm Jones</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2008/08/01/why-is-the-does-office-of-energy-efficiency-and-renewable-energy-pushing-oil-shale/comment-page-1/#comment-4425</link>
		<dc:creator>JIm Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 06:17:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=613#comment-4425</guid>
		<description>Its all about money and getting filthy RICH, not to mention about &quot;who&quot; you know! 
 
JT  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.FireMe.To/udi&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;www.FireMe.To/udi&lt;/a&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its all about money and getting filthy RICH, not to mention about &quot;who&quot; you know!</p>
<p>JT<br />
  <a href="http://www.FireMe.To/udi" rel="nofollow">http://www.FireMe.To/udi</a> </p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Dearborn Walke</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2008/08/01/why-is-the-does-office-of-energy-efficiency-and-renewable-energy-pushing-oil-shale/comment-page-1/#comment-4422</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Dearborn Walke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 04:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=613#comment-4422</guid>
		<description>I grew up in Colorado, and during the oil crisis of the &#039;70&#039;s worked construction.  For one year I built infrastructure for oil shale extraction until the Arabs dropped the price to keep us on the hook.   
 
The biggest source of oil in America is actually the oil sands of Alberta, Canada, which are similar and part of the same geologic feature as the oil shale.  We could in fact extract usable oil from the Colorado shale, at considerably less than what we pay other countries now.  It would take at least two years to build the infrastructure, and it will have an effect on the environment; however the oil shale is strikingly ugly, looking like giant piles of chunky poop, and it&#039;s removal would only improve the view.  Nothing grows on the oil shale except the occasional weed, no trees, no wildlife. 
 
Using oil shale would actually save us quite a bit of money, and additionally keep us from having to fund our enemies.  When the Arabs dropped the price of oil, shortsighted economic policies dropped the project.  With the knowledge learned from the Canadian oil sands, using the oil shale should be considerably less injurious to my lovely state&#039;s environment than it would have been 30 years ago, and economically even more efficient. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I grew up in Colorado, and during the oil crisis of the &#039;70&#039;s worked construction.  For one year I built infrastructure for oil shale extraction until the Arabs dropped the price to keep us on the hook.  </p>
<p>The biggest source of oil in America is actually the oil sands of Alberta, Canada, which are similar and part of the same geologic feature as the oil shale.  We could in fact extract usable oil from the Colorado shale, at considerably less than what we pay other countries now.  It would take at least two years to build the infrastructure, and it will have an effect on the environment; however the oil shale is strikingly ugly, looking like giant piles of chunky poop, and it&#039;s removal would only improve the view.  Nothing grows on the oil shale except the occasional weed, no trees, no wildlife.</p>
<p>Using oil shale would actually save us quite a bit of money, and additionally keep us from having to fund our enemies.  When the Arabs dropped the price of oil, shortsighted economic policies dropped the project.  With the knowledge learned from the Canadian oil sands, using the oil shale should be considerably less injurious to my lovely state&#039;s environment than it would have been 30 years ago, and economically even more efficient. </p>
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