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	<title>Comments on: Price of EU Carbon Permits Falls to All-Time Low</title>
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	<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/01/28/price-of-eu-carbon-permits-falls-to-all-time-low/</link>
	<description>Patriotism that loves our country, our land, and our planet</description>
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		<title>By: 6 Reasons Why a Carbon Cap is Superior to Cap and Trade &#124; ecopolitology</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/01/28/price-of-eu-carbon-permits-falls-to-all-time-low/comment-page-1/#comment-63175</link>
		<dc:creator>6 Reasons Why a Carbon Cap is Superior to Cap and Trade &#124; ecopolitology</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 16:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=2273#comment-63175</guid>
		<description>[...] to the biggest polluters) has not been effective at lowering carbon emissions. Not only that, but the price of carbon has fallen precipitously on the European Climate [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to the biggest polluters) has not been effective at lowering carbon emissions. Not only that, but the price of carbon has fallen precipitously on the European Climate [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Clinton on Global Warming: &#8220;U.S. has been negligent in living up to its responsibilities.&#8221; : Red, Green, and Blue</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/01/28/price-of-eu-carbon-permits-falls-to-all-time-low/comment-page-1/#comment-39013</link>
		<dc:creator>Clinton on Global Warming: &#8220;U.S. has been negligent in living up to its responsibilities.&#8221; : Red, Green, and Blue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 20:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=2273#comment-39013</guid>
		<description>[...] with a struggling global economy, including a tanking European carbon market, some European states have already shown trepidation towards aggressive climate [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] with a struggling global economy, including a tanking European carbon market, some European states have already shown trepidation towards aggressive climate [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gekkobear</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/01/28/price-of-eu-carbon-permits-falls-to-all-time-low/comment-page-1/#comment-34658</link>
		<dc:creator>Gekkobear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=2273#comment-34658</guid>
		<description>&quot;...they are not stimulating new investments in clean energy - the very purpose of their creation.&quot; 
 
The plan wasn&#039;t to reduce CO2, or to manage the environment, or to reduce pollution (assuming you&#039;d consider CO2 as pollution)? 
 
The goal was specifically to direct funding of corporation&#039;s money into one specific sector of the economy;  the &quot;clean energy&quot; and &quot;green&quot; companies? 
 
So, now with the downturn; your &quot;chosen winners&quot; aren&#039;t making out like bandits as expected; sure CO2 production is down, the cap is still in place, and CO2 emissions are under the expected level... none of that matters. 
 
The problem is the &quot;greening&quot; companies aren&#039;t getting paid the fat cash.  It makes my heart break to think that they&#039;re not getting their Government policy decided funding. 
 
Thanks for the honesty declaring what the real goal and intent of the cap &amp; trade policy was.  Nothing to do with CO2 emissions, environment, warming, or anything else... just lining the pockets of the &quot;green&quot; companies. 
 
Maybe next time you&#039;ll just rob the taxpayers and give their money directly to avoid this sort of complication. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;&#8230;they are not stimulating new investments in clean energy &#8211; the very purpose of their creation.&quot;</p>
<p>The plan wasn&#039;t to reduce CO2, or to manage the environment, or to reduce pollution (assuming you&#039;d consider CO2 as pollution)?</p>
<p>The goal was specifically to direct funding of corporation&#039;s money into one specific sector of the economy;  the &quot;clean energy&quot; and &quot;green&quot; companies?</p>
<p>So, now with the downturn; your &quot;chosen winners&quot; aren&#039;t making out like bandits as expected; sure CO2 production is down, the cap is still in place, and CO2 emissions are under the expected level&#8230; none of that matters.</p>
<p>The problem is the &quot;greening&quot; companies aren&#039;t getting paid the fat cash.  It makes my heart break to think that they&#039;re not getting their Government policy decided funding.</p>
<p>Thanks for the honesty declaring what the real goal and intent of the cap &amp; trade policy was.  Nothing to do with CO2 emissions, environment, warming, or anything else&#8230; just lining the pockets of the &quot;green&quot; companies.</p>
<p>Maybe next time you&#039;ll just rob the taxpayers and give their money directly to avoid this sort of complication.</p>
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		<title>By: Cool Green Science: The Conservation Blog of The Nature Conservancy &#187; Cool Green Morning: Wednesday, Jan. 28</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/01/28/price-of-eu-carbon-permits-falls-to-all-time-low/comment-page-1/#comment-26513</link>
		<dc:creator>Cool Green Science: The Conservation Blog of The Nature Conservancy &#187; Cool Green Morning: Wednesday, Jan. 28</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 13:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=2273#comment-26513</guid>
		<description>[...] Maybe Not: Meanwhile, the price of E.U. carbon permits has fallen to an all-time low &#8212; because they gave out free pollution permits, says Red Green and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Maybe Not: Meanwhile, the price of E.U. carbon permits has fallen to an all-time low &#8212; because they gave out free pollution permits, says Red Green and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy B. Hurst</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/01/28/price-of-eu-carbon-permits-falls-to-all-time-low/comment-page-1/#comment-24787</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy B. Hurst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:57:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=2273#comment-24787</guid>
		<description>You make some good points, but also some that I don&#039;t accept on face value. You are right, in terms of business decisions, these manufacturing/industrial companies are selling their carbon credits because they can, I don&#039;t blame them for trying to generate some extra revenue in this down economy.  
 
However, your argument that &quot;they have to have as similar a cost base as their Chinese, Indian or whatever competition,&quot; assumes that they do. Using that argument, why doesn&#039;t the EU allow/encourage European manufacturers to pay their employees a Euro or two per day? Why? Because it&#039;s wrong. Why don&#039;t European manufacturers dump their manufacturing waste in rivers? There are lots of things Chinese and Indian companies do to gain a competitive advantage that European companies do not.  
 
The competition argument will only go so far, my friend. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You make some good points, but also some that I don&#039;t accept on face value. You are right, in terms of business decisions, these manufacturing/industrial companies are selling their carbon credits because they can, I don&#039;t blame them for trying to generate some extra revenue in this down economy. </p>
<p>However, your argument that &quot;they have to have as similar a cost base as their Chinese, Indian or whatever competition,&quot; assumes that they do. Using that argument, why doesn&#039;t the EU allow/encourage European manufacturers to pay their employees a Euro or two per day? Why? Because it&#039;s wrong. Why don&#039;t European manufacturers dump their manufacturing waste in rivers? There are lots of things Chinese and Indian companies do to gain a competitive advantage that European companies do not. </p>
<p>The competition argument will only go so far, my friend.</p>
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		<title>By: Londinium</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/01/28/price-of-eu-carbon-permits-falls-to-all-time-low/comment-page-1/#comment-24681</link>
		<dc:creator>Londinium</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=2273#comment-24681</guid>
		<description>Those are all fine points, BUT....

1. EU industrials were given emissions allowances roughly equivalent to their business-as-usual emissions, to ensure they didn&#039;t have to buy allowances which would hit their international competitiveness.
Whether you agree with this or not, EU companies are not in the business of being charitable to their non-carbon constrained competitors around the world. So in order for them to stay competitive, they have to have as similar a cost base as their Chinese, Indian or whatever competition. Hence the free allocation of allowances. You can bet your bottom dollar that the day India and China start auctioning allowances to their own companies, the EU will be doing the same.
Let&#039;s overlook the fact that there&#039;s going to be a lot of auctioning anyway from 2012 onwards in the EU.

2. EU industrial output is collapsing. Therefore, so are emissions. (And I know this isn&#039;t HOW emissions were supposed to fall, but they are.)
So EU industrial companies have surplus allowances - they won&#039;t need them AT ALL.
They also can&#039;t get loans because banks aren&#039;t lending to anyone without a gold-plated credit rating, they&#039;re running low on cash because their sales have plummeted, and they have bills to pay.
So what&#039;s a company to do? They have these allowances floating around, they don&#039;t need them, but they&#039;re worth €10 a tonne on the market.
It&#039;s not hard to figure out, is it? It makes Good Sense to sell these allowances. They&#039;d be idiots not to.

3. Now, if these allowances had been auctioned rather than given out for free, then sure, these companies would be selling them just the same as they are now, to stay alive. But they&#039;d ALSO be lobbying the government to give them back the money they spent on these allowances (in the form of govt. handouts) so they can stay afloat.
The revenue from the sale of these free allowances has essentially replaced government handouts. So we, taxpayers, aren&#039;t subsidising another failing part of the economy. Hey! Free allocation helped you and me out!

Now, what Giles hasn&#039;t found out yet is that industrial companies are selling MORE than just their surplus. Because allowances for calendar 2009 are going to be handed out on Feb 28, and because companies only have to surrender allowances to cover their 2008 emissions by March 31, they&#039;re able to effectively &quot;borrow&quot; 2009 allowances and put them towards their 2008 compliance.

What this means is that a company can sell ALL its 2008 allowances to raise short-term cash, and then use ALL its 2009 allowances to cover its 2008 emissions.

And that is what&#039;s more important than just the sale of surpluses. Companies in the EU are so scared of going bankrupt in 2009 that they&#039;re basically doing whatever they can to survive, even if that means mortgaging their future compliance with the emissions trading scheme.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those are all fine points, BUT&#8230;.</p>
<p>1. EU industrials were given emissions allowances roughly equivalent to their business-as-usual emissions, to ensure they didn&#8217;t have to buy allowances which would hit their international competitiveness.<br />
Whether you agree with this or not, EU companies are not in the business of being charitable to their non-carbon constrained competitors around the world. So in order for them to stay competitive, they have to have as similar a cost base as their Chinese, Indian or whatever competition. Hence the free allocation of allowances. You can bet your bottom dollar that the day India and China start auctioning allowances to their own companies, the EU will be doing the same.<br />
Let&#8217;s overlook the fact that there&#8217;s going to be a lot of auctioning anyway from 2012 onwards in the EU.</p>
<p>2. EU industrial output is collapsing. Therefore, so are emissions. (And I know this isn&#8217;t HOW emissions were supposed to fall, but they are.)<br />
So EU industrial companies have surplus allowances &#8211; they won&#8217;t need them AT ALL.<br />
They also can&#8217;t get loans because banks aren&#8217;t lending to anyone without a gold-plated credit rating, they&#8217;re running low on cash because their sales have plummeted, and they have bills to pay.<br />
So what&#8217;s a company to do? They have these allowances floating around, they don&#8217;t need them, but they&#8217;re worth €10 a tonne on the market.<br />
It&#8217;s not hard to figure out, is it? It makes Good Sense to sell these allowances. They&#8217;d be idiots not to.</p>
<p>3. Now, if these allowances had been auctioned rather than given out for free, then sure, these companies would be selling them just the same as they are now, to stay alive. But they&#8217;d ALSO be lobbying the government to give them back the money they spent on these allowances (in the form of govt. handouts) so they can stay afloat.<br />
The revenue from the sale of these free allowances has essentially replaced government handouts. So we, taxpayers, aren&#8217;t subsidising another failing part of the economy. Hey! Free allocation helped you and me out!</p>
<p>Now, what Giles hasn&#8217;t found out yet is that industrial companies are selling MORE than just their surplus. Because allowances for calendar 2009 are going to be handed out on Feb 28, and because companies only have to surrender allowances to cover their 2008 emissions by March 31, they&#8217;re able to effectively &#8220;borrow&#8221; 2009 allowances and put them towards their 2008 compliance.</p>
<p>What this means is that a company can sell ALL its 2008 allowances to raise short-term cash, and then use ALL its 2009 allowances to cover its 2008 emissions.</p>
<p>And that is what&#8217;s more important than just the sale of surpluses. Companies in the EU are so scared of going bankrupt in 2009 that they&#8217;re basically doing whatever they can to survive, even if that means mortgaging their future compliance with the emissions trading scheme.</p>
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