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	<title>Comments on: CBO: Waxman-Markey Climate Bill to Cost Just $175 per Household</title>
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	<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/06/23/cbo-waxman-markey-climate-bill-to-cost-just-175household/</link>
	<description>Patriotism that loves our country, our land, and our planet</description>
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		<title>By: Wonk Room &#187; NAM/ACCF Forecasts 20 Million New Jobs Under American Clean Energy And Security Act</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/06/23/cbo-waxman-markey-climate-bill-to-cost-just-175household/comment-page-1/#comment-63126</link>
		<dc:creator>Wonk Room &#187; NAM/ACCF Forecasts 20 Million New Jobs Under American Clean Energy And Security Act</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 18:05:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=3284#comment-63126</guid>
		<description>[...] NAM also made unusually pessimistic assumptions for the deployment of biomass electricity generation and the use of banking provisions by polluting corporations. These assumptions lead to a carbon allowance price of $123 to $159 per ton of carbon dioxide in 2030. This price is more than twice as expensive as the estimates of the EIA, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, and the Congressional Budget Office. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] NAM also made unusually pessimistic assumptions for the deployment of biomass electricity generation and the use of banking provisions by polluting corporations. These assumptions lead to a carbon allowance price of $123 to $159 per ton of carbon dioxide in 2030. This price is more than twice as expensive as the estimates of the EIA, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, and the Congressional Budget Office. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: sixkiler</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/06/23/cbo-waxman-markey-climate-bill-to-cost-just-175household/comment-page-1/#comment-60725</link>
		<dc:creator>sixkiler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:11:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=3284#comment-60725</guid>
		<description>The only thing that I know for sure is that global warming and cooling has been going on for billons of years. In the 70&#8217;s, there was a call to protect us from global cooling, it is July in the Midwest and I have my windows open and the AC off. Cap and Trade is nothing more than a tax designed to push the United States into the Communist State of America. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only thing that I know for sure is that global warming and cooling has been going on for billons of years. In the 70&rsquo;s, there was a call to protect us from global cooling, it is July in the Midwest and I have my windows open and the AC off. Cap and Trade is nothing more than a tax designed to push the United States into the Communist State of America.</p>
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		<title>By: russ</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/06/23/cbo-waxman-markey-climate-bill-to-cost-just-175household/comment-page-1/#comment-59839</link>
		<dc:creator>russ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 02:45:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=3284#comment-59839</guid>
		<description>Whether it is a tax or not depends on the individual&#039;s definition of a tax. Like Clinton&#039;s definition of sex. 
 
Parabolic cooling towers are used many places besides nuclear plants. They are capital intensive but cheap to operate - you choice between capital costs and operating costs.  
 
In blowing up the photo it is difficult to see much difference between the columns of vapor but looking at the green countryside around the plant I would guess the emissions are not too much of a local problem. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whether it is a tax or not depends on the individual&#039;s definition of a tax. Like Clinton&#039;s definition of sex.</p>
<p>Parabolic cooling towers are used many places besides nuclear plants. They are capital intensive but cheap to operate &#8211; you choice between capital costs and operating costs. </p>
<p>In blowing up the photo it is difficult to see much difference between the columns of vapor but looking at the green countryside around the plant I would guess the emissions are not too much of a local problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy B. Hurst</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/06/23/cbo-waxman-markey-climate-bill-to-cost-just-175household/comment-page-1/#comment-59769</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy B. Hurst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 10:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=3284#comment-59769</guid>
		<description>The image is still a coal-fired power plant and not a nuclear power plant, right? 
 
I know what a cooling tower is. I know what steam is. I also know that Drax doesn&#039;t only emit steam. See that tower in the middle of the picture? Is that steam too, Dr. Science? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The image is still a coal-fired power plant and not a nuclear power plant, right?</p>
<p>I know what a cooling tower is. I know what steam is. I also know that Drax doesn&#039;t only emit steam. See that tower in the middle of the picture? Is that steam too, Dr. Science?</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/06/23/cbo-waxman-markey-climate-bill-to-cost-just-175household/comment-page-1/#comment-59765</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 09:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=3284#comment-59765</guid>
		<description>Nope, While it IS a coal fired plant, the gloomy picture is of STEAM released from the cooling towers. Just like the cooling towers at a Nuclear Power plant. 
Throw water on anything hot and you&#039;ll get the same thing. Dihydrogen Monoxide. H2O. If only you and Al Gore had actually paid attention in fourth grade science class... 
 
Here&#039;s a link to the picture showing it.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://wikimapia.org/9577213/cooling-tower-Drax-Power-Plant&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://wikimapia.org/9577213/cooling-tower-Drax-P...&lt;/a&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nope, While it IS a coal fired plant, the gloomy picture is of STEAM released from the cooling towers. Just like the cooling towers at a Nuclear Power plant.</p>
<p>Throw water on anything hot and you&#039;ll get the same thing. Dihydrogen Monoxide. H2O. If only you and Al Gore had actually paid attention in fourth grade science class&#8230;</p>
<p>Here&#039;s a link to the picture showing it.<br />
  <a href="http://wikimapia.org/9577213/cooling-tower-Drax-Power-Plant" rel="nofollow">http://wikimapia.org/9577213/cooling-tower-Drax-P&#8230;</a></p>
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		<title>By: Timothy B. Hurst</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/06/23/cbo-waxman-markey-climate-bill-to-cost-just-175household/comment-page-1/#comment-59188</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy B. Hurst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:43:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=3284#comment-59188</guid>
		<description>Actually Christopher, that photo is of the Drax Power Station in the UK. The &lt;b&gt;coal-burning&lt;/b&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drax_power_station&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Drax plant is the largest single point source of (CO2) in the UK&lt;/a&gt;. If Drax were a country, it would be ranked the 76th (out of 207 countries) in terms of CO2 emissions. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually Christopher, that photo is of the Drax Power Station in the UK. The <b>coal-burning</b> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drax_power_station" rel="nofollow">Drax plant is the largest single point source of (CO2) in the UK</a>. If Drax were a country, it would be ranked the 76th (out of 207 countries) in terms of CO2 emissions.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/06/23/cbo-waxman-markey-climate-bill-to-cost-just-175household/comment-page-1/#comment-59186</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:31:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=3284#comment-59186</guid>
		<description>The dark, gloomy picture accompanying this article is titled UK_coal_pollution. Isn&#039;t that hilarious?!  Credibility: Destroyed! 
 
(It is a nuclear power plant on a cool, humid day and what&#039;s being spewed into the atmosphere is that oh-so-deadly dihydrogen monoxide.) </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The dark, gloomy picture accompanying this article is titled UK_coal_pollution. Isn&#039;t that hilarious?!  Credibility: Destroyed!</p>
<p>(It is a nuclear power plant on a cool, humid day and what&#039;s being spewed into the atmosphere is that oh-so-deadly dihydrogen monoxide.)</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Craig</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/06/23/cbo-waxman-markey-climate-bill-to-cost-just-175household/comment-page-1/#comment-58903</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=3284#comment-58903</guid>
		<description>The author need to read the referenced document a little better- the $175, according to the CBO is ONLY for the the cap and trade provisions- not any of the other energy reduction provsions included in the legislation.  The actual cost would be significantly higher. 
 
Cap and trade in and of itself does not save any energy or the environment(reducing the cap should), it only creates a new Wall Street opportunity for them to make money. 
 
There is a lot of misinformation out there on energy savings and you would hope that a reporter would not be so irresponsible as to be the one to proliferate new half truths. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The author need to read the referenced document a little better- the $175, according to the CBO is ONLY for the the cap and trade provisions- not any of the other energy reduction provsions included in the legislation.  The actual cost would be significantly higher.</p>
<p>Cap and trade in and of itself does not save any energy or the environment(reducing the cap should), it only creates a new Wall Street opportunity for them to make money.</p>
<p>There is a lot of misinformation out there on energy savings and you would hope that a reporter would not be so irresponsible as to be the one to proliferate new half truths.</p>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/06/23/cbo-waxman-markey-climate-bill-to-cost-just-175household/comment-page-1/#comment-58854</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=3284#comment-58854</guid>
		<description>OPPOSE THE WAXMAN-MARKEY CLIMATE BILL 
 
 --- IT WON&#039;T REDUCE CO2 !!! 
 
 --- IT WILL DO GREAT HARM TO THE ECONOMY 
 
 --- IT WILL DESTROY MILLIONS OF JOBS 
 
 ---  IT WILL INCREASE ENERGY COSTS BY OVER $3OOO A YEAR THAT NO ONE CAN AFFORD 
(ESPECIALLY CHILDREN WHO WILL SUFFER THE MOST). 
 
 --- IT WILL LOWER EVERYONE&#039;s STANDARD OF LIVING (EXCEPT RICH PEOPLE LIKE NANCY 
PELOSI) 
 
 --- IT WILL CAUSE GREAT HARM TO THE ENVIRONMENT. 
 
Question:  Has anyone done and environmental impact study on the impact of wind 
turbines and the harm to children when their parents can&#039;t afford to heat their 
homes? 
 
How anyone can sleep well at night and support the Waxman-Markey Climate Bill 
is beyond me. Oppose the Waxman-Markey Climate Bill as it will not reduce co2 but will destroy the lives of millions of people.  
   
P.S. Wind turbines and solar are enormously expensive and feeble sources of 
energy that can&#039;t replace oil and coal. Plus wind turbines will decimate large 
tracks of land and kill lots of birds. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OPPOSE THE WAXMAN-MARKEY CLIMATE BILL</p>
<p> &#8212; IT WON&#039;T REDUCE CO2 !!!</p>
<p> &#8212; IT WILL DO GREAT HARM TO THE ECONOMY</p>
<p> &#8212; IT WILL DESTROY MILLIONS OF JOBS</p>
<p> &#8212;  IT WILL INCREASE ENERGY COSTS BY OVER $3OOO A YEAR THAT NO ONE CAN AFFORD</p>
<p>(ESPECIALLY CHILDREN WHO WILL SUFFER THE MOST).</p>
<p> &#8212; IT WILL LOWER EVERYONE&#039;s STANDARD OF LIVING (EXCEPT RICH PEOPLE LIKE NANCY</p>
<p>PELOSI)</p>
<p> &#8212; IT WILL CAUSE GREAT HARM TO THE ENVIRONMENT.</p>
<p>Question:  Has anyone done and environmental impact study on the impact of wind</p>
<p>turbines and the harm to children when their parents can&#039;t afford to heat their</p>
<p>homes?</p>
<p>How anyone can sleep well at night and support the Waxman-Markey Climate Bill</p>
<p>is beyond me. Oppose the Waxman-Markey Climate Bill as it will not reduce co2 but will destroy the lives of millions of people. </p>
<p>P.S. Wind turbines and solar are enormously expensive and feeble sources of</p>
<p>energy that can&#039;t replace oil and coal. Plus wind turbines will decimate large</p>
<p>tracks of land and kill lots of birds.</p>
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		<title>By: Benton Love</title>
		<link>http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/06/23/cbo-waxman-markey-climate-bill-to-cost-just-175household/comment-page-1/#comment-58828</link>
		<dc:creator>Benton Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:58:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redgreenandblue.org/?p=3284#comment-58828</guid>
		<description>In terms of the numbers above, as usual, both sides are off. The CBO is being far too sanguine and the Republicans (esp Boehner) are being too alarmist. It&#8217;s actually about $1,750 per person (but paid just once). 
 
The math comes down to this: how much would it cost to install sufficient renewable capacity to meet the 15% renewable portfolio standards prescribed in the current (6/23/09) iteration of HR 2454, aka Waxman-Markey. 
 
In 2007, the US generated ~4,156,000,000 megawatt-hours (&quot;MWhs&quot;) of electricity, of which 3.38% (140,000,000 MWhs) was generated from renewable sources.  
 
To get this number up to 15%, we&#039;d have to generate an additional 483,000,000 MWhs of renewable electricity per year. There are 8,760 hours in a standard year, so if wind generated at 23% of capacity (which it historically has in high velocity zones), that would be ~239,000 MW of capacity (because 239,000MW capacity * 8,760 hours * 23% capacity utilization = 483,000,000 MWhs).  
 
Wind generation is by far the cheapest and most efficient source of renewable generation, costing ~2.2 million/MW in capacity. 239,000 kW * 2.2 million/MW = $527 billion. This country has ~300 million people in it, so that comes to somewhere around $1,750 per person, all to reduce CO2 emissions in the US by ~15% (assuming no load growth). Quite a bit of money for such a modest goal. 
 
There are other problems: 
 
There is no incentive under the RPS program to switch from the dirtiest most inefficient, coal plant to the cleanest, most efficienct combined-cycle natural gas plant (which would emit 40% the CO2 per MWh that coal would) because all &#8220;non-renewable&#8221; sources are treated the same under RPS.  
 
Coal and nat gas together account for ~3/4 of our generation per year (1/2 coal, 1/4 gas). Gas plants currently fire way under capacity (because coal is slightly cheaper). Replacing coal generation with gas generation would--at a stroke--reduce CO2 emissions by 20% and would require no almost no new gas capacity to be built. You could incentivize this change in power dispatch behavior through a simple, direct, and not-very-onerous carbon tax. 
 
Instead Harvey-Waxman uses the very clumsy bludgeon of RPS, which committees are wont to do. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In terms of the numbers above, as usual, both sides are off. The CBO is being far too sanguine and the Republicans (esp Boehner) are being too alarmist. It&rsquo;s actually about $1,750 per person (but paid just once).</p>
<p>The math comes down to this: how much would it cost to install sufficient renewable capacity to meet the 15% renewable portfolio standards prescribed in the current (6/23/09) iteration of HR 2454, aka Waxman-Markey.</p>
<p>In 2007, the US generated ~4,156,000,000 megawatt-hours (&quot;MWhs&quot;) of electricity, of which 3.38% (140,000,000 MWhs) was generated from renewable sources. </p>
<p>To get this number up to 15%, we&#039;d have to generate an additional 483,000,000 MWhs of renewable electricity per year. There are 8,760 hours in a standard year, so if wind generated at 23% of capacity (which it historically has in high velocity zones), that would be ~239,000 MW of capacity (because 239,000MW capacity * 8,760 hours * 23% capacity utilization = 483,000,000 MWhs). </p>
<p>Wind generation is by far the cheapest and most efficient source of renewable generation, costing ~2.2 million/MW in capacity. 239,000 kW * 2.2 million/MW = $527 billion. This country has ~300 million people in it, so that comes to somewhere around $1,750 per person, all to reduce CO2 emissions in the US by ~15% (assuming no load growth). Quite a bit of money for such a modest goal.</p>
<p>There are other problems:</p>
<p>There is no incentive under the RPS program to switch from the dirtiest most inefficient, coal plant to the cleanest, most efficienct combined-cycle natural gas plant (which would emit 40% the CO2 per MWh that coal would) because all &ldquo;non-renewable&rdquo; sources are treated the same under RPS. </p>
<p>Coal and nat gas together account for ~3/4 of our generation per year (1/2 coal, 1/4 gas). Gas plants currently fire way under capacity (because coal is slightly cheaper). Replacing coal generation with gas generation would&#8211;at a stroke&#8211;reduce CO2 emissions by 20% and would require no almost no new gas capacity to be built. You could incentivize this change in power dispatch behavior through a simple, direct, and not-very-onerous carbon tax.</p>
<p>Instead Harvey-Waxman uses the very clumsy bludgeon of RPS, which committees are wont to do.</p>
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